Increse the 256 character limit on cloud variables

samq64

I think the 256 character limit on cloud variables should be increased. I don't think this is rejected because I looked at the Official List of Rejected Suggestions, and these were the only cloud-related suggestions I found:

Za-Cherry wrote:
1.12 Letters in cloud variables
Some users would like an easy way to set cloud variables to values which include letters. Such a feature was present in the beta version of Scratch 2.0. However, allowing letters in cloud variables would cause a lot of moderation issues. For instance, it would make it too easy to make inappropriate cloud chat projects; for more information, see #3.1 on this list. Hence the feature was removed, and so cloud variables can now only be set to numeric values.

By encoding and decoding, it is possible to simulate letters in cloud variables, but in reality they are just using numbers in cloud variables and letters in normal variables.

Za-cherry wrote:
1.6 Cloud lists
Cloud variables currently have several restrictions. There can be at most 10 cloud variables per project due to server costs. New Scratchers cannot use cloud variables, for it is easy to misuse them. Cloud variables can only support up to 256 numeric digits to restrict the creation of chat projects; for more information, see #3.1 on this list.

This block would allow you to create lists to be stored on the servers for everyone to see, similar to cloud variables. However, cloud lists would require similar restrictions as listed above, and the issues currently presented with cloud variables would only grow with the addition of cloud lists. You can still use cloud variables to create a list which contains entries everyone can see, but the Scratch Team will not be adding an easy official way to make cloud lists.
(☁ list :: list)

Za-cherry wrote:
3.1 Chat projects with cloud variables
Although it is possible to make a chat project using cloud variables, it is not allowed to make such a project. This is because there is high potential for bullying and inappropriate messages, and the Scratch Team does not have the resources to moderate these chat rooms.

Chat projects on Scratch which contained a whitelist (that is, the user could only chat using certain words) used to be allowed on Scratch. Over time, however, the moderation issues got too high, and some users attempted to use such projects to get around the Community Guidelines. As a result, the Scratch Team has decided that these kinds of projects are not allowed on the Scratch website, even if they contain a whitelist of words. However, whitelisted phrases are okay, provided that users cannot freely write their own sentences using the cloud chat project.

Important: This suggestion is to simply raise the limit, not remove it.

Reasons why the 256 character should be increased

1. Cloud saving systems will be able to hold more users
2. It would make it easier to make multiplayer games
3. Projects would use less cloud variables
4. There was no limit before 2018
5. It would make it possible to make projects that could only be made before the limit was added
6. Most Scratchers already know cloud-chats are not allowed, even if they did make one it would get reported and removed.

Reasons why the 256 character should not be increased

1. It would make it easier to make cloud-chat projects even though they're not allowed
2. If the variables get too long they could crash the project
3. It would make the cloud system harder for the ST to maintain
4. More server costs

Last edited by samq64 (Jan. 31, 2021 14:52:33)

samq64

I did the calculations and if you encode each character in a list into a two-digit number then fill all 10 cloud variables to the 256 limit then your list can be 1,280 characters long, but it means you need to use up all 10 cloud variables for that project, so you can't use cloud data for anything else.

Last edited by samq64 (Jan. 18, 2021 23:12:13)

pavcato

Za-Chary wrote:
1.6 Cloud lists
Cloud variables currently have several restrictions. There can be at most 10 cloud variables per project due to server costs. New Scratchers cannot use cloud variables, for it is easy to misuse them. Cloud variables can only support up to 256 numeric digits to restrict the creation of chat projects; for more information, see #3.1 on this list.

This block would allow you to create lists to be stored on the servers for everyone to see, similar to cloud variables. However, cloud lists would require similar restrictions as listed above, and the issues currently presented with cloud variables would only grow with the addition of cloud lists. You can still use cloud variables to create a list which contains entries everyone can see, but the Scratch Team will not be adding an easy official way to make cloud lists.

Za-Chary

I don't think increasing the limit is rejected, but I am reasonably confident that removing the limit completely is rejected. Cloud storage takes up space, and with that comes monetary server costs. We don't have all the money and resources in the world to support unlimited cloud data, so there has to be some sort of limit.

samq64

Yeah, I see the problem with unlimited cloud data. The question is what the limit should be. I would say 1,024 because it's considerably more cloud space, but not too much.

Last edited by samq64 (Jan. 18, 2021 23:44:07)

samq64

pavcato wrote:
Za-Chary wrote:
1.6 Cloud lists
Cloud variables currently have several restrictions. There can be at most 10 cloud variables per project due to server costs. New Scratchers cannot use cloud variables, for it is easy to misuse them. Cloud variables can only support up to 256 numeric digits to restrict the creation of chat projects; for more information, see #3.1 on this list.

This block would allow you to create lists to be stored on the servers for everyone to see, similar to cloud variables. However, cloud lists would require similar restrictions as listed above, and the issues currently presented with cloud variables would only grow with the addition of cloud lists. You can still use cloud variables to create a list which contains entries everyone can see, but the Scratch Team will not be adding an easy official way to make cloud lists.

You've got a point there, but I don't think many Scratchers would make cloud-chats scene they're banned. From the description, it looks like anything where a user can input their own text that is stored on the cloud is considered a cloud-chat. So inappropriate user input on cloud variables shouldn't be a problem anymore.

Last edited by samq64 (Jan. 18, 2021 23:46:12)

samq64

Bump

the2000

TOLORS wrote:
Cloud variables can only support up to 256 numeric digits to restrict the creation of chat projects

Okay, this explanation bothers me heavily. Cloud chat projects can still be created very easily with 256 numeric digits. Sure adding more would increase the maximum length of a hypothetical chat message, but you can already currently hold 128 characters of text in one. I'm assuming the emphasis was supposed to be on the “numeric” part, but I think that this sentence should be rephrased. Unless that wasn't the intent? I think it's reasonable that the character limit was put into place, but I don't think that this is the reason.

Last edited by the2000 (Jan. 30, 2021 00:31:50)

samq64

Bump
Up
My
Post

Last edited by samq64 (Jan. 31, 2021 14:55:40)

gosoccerboy5

the2000 wrote:
TOLORS wrote:
Cloud variables can only support up to 256 numeric digits to restrict the creation of chat projects
Okay, this explanation bothers me heavily. Cloud chat projects can still be created very easily with 256 numeric digits. Sure adding more would increase the maximum length of a hypothetical chat message, but you can already currently hold 128 characters of text in one. I'm assuming the emphasis was supposed to be on the “numeric” part, but I think that this sentence should be rephrased. Unless that wasn't the intent? I think it's reasonable that the character limit was put into place, but I don't think that this is the reason.

You'd be limited to 128 characters (like you said). Needless to say, even if you used multiple cloud variables, it would be very hard to coordinate things (like deleting data, switching data from variable to variable, etc). As of right now my message is way over 128 chars so you'd have to split up messages which would be very difficult.

So while the 256 char limit may not prevent cloud chats entirely, it is extremely effective in preventing easy creation of large cloud chat projects.

the2000

gosoccerboy5 wrote:
the2000 wrote:
-snip-
You'd be limited to 128 characters (like you said). Needless to say, even if you used multiple cloud variables, it would be very hard to coordinate things (like deleting data, switching data from variable to variable, etc). As of right now my message is way over 128 chars so you'd have to split up messages which would be very difficult.

So while the 256 char limit may not prevent cloud chats entirely, it is extremely effective in preventing easy creation of large cloud chat projects.

What kind of chat room has people frequently sending messages of over 128 characters? Most chat rooms I've been to don't reach that amount, even including usernames. Not to mention that you have ten cloud variables, so the maximum theoretical length of a chat message is 1280 characters.

gosoccerboy5

the2000 wrote:
gosoccerboy5 wrote:
the2000 wrote:
-snip-
You'd be limited to 128 characters (like you said). Needless to say, even if you used multiple cloud variables, it would be very hard to coordinate things (like deleting data, switching data from variable to variable, etc). As of right now my message is way over 128 chars so you'd have to split up messages which would be very difficult.

So while the 256 char limit may not prevent cloud chats entirely, it is extremely effective in preventing easy creation of large cloud chat projects.
What kind of chat room has people frequently sending messages of over 128 characters? Most chat rooms I've been to don't reach that amount, even including usernames. Not to mention that you have ten cloud variables, so the maximum theoretical length of a chat message is 1280 characters.

That's one chat message. There is a 1280 character limit total, assuming each and every person would be maximizing the amount of characters. Not a very good chat system, arguably.

the2000

gosoccerboy5 wrote:
the2000 wrote:
gosoccerboy5 wrote:
-snip-
What kind of chat room has people frequently sending messages of over 128 characters? Most chat rooms I've been to don't reach that amount, even including usernames. Not to mention that you have ten cloud variables, so the maximum theoretical length of a chat message is 1280 characters.
That's one chat message. There is a 1280 character limit total, assuming each and every person would be maximizing the amount of characters. Not a very good chat system, arguably.

That's not how chat systems work. The cloud variables would only need to stay on one message long enough for every client to receive it. Immediately afterwards, the cloud variables would be cleared out to create a 1280 character limit per message. So no, it is not a “1280 character limit total.”

Last edited by the2000 (Jan. 31, 2021 17:49:26)

samq64

the2000 wrote:
gosoccerboy5 wrote:
the2000 wrote:
gosoccerboy5 wrote:
-snip-
What kind of chat room has people frequently sending messages of over 128 characters? Most chat rooms I've been to don't reach that amount, even including usernames. Not to mention that you have ten cloud variables, so the maximum theoretical length of a chat message is 1280 characters.
That's one chat message. There is a 1280 character limit total, assuming each and every person would be maximizing the amount of characters. Not a very good chat system, arguably.
That's not how chat systems work. The cloud variables would only need to stay on one message long enough for every client to receive it. Immediately afterwards, the cloud variables would be cleared out to create a 1280 character limit per message. So no, it is not a “1280 character limit total.”

Well it depends on weather or not you want the messages to be retrievable next time.

But it doesn't matter because they're not allowed on tge Scratch webite (unless they're pre-written messages and not much can go wrong there), so the only other reason I can see why this shouldn't be implemented is because of server costs.

Like I mentioned above the limit should be increased to 1,024 per variable scene it allows you to save a reasonable amount of data without too much more server costs.

No matter how low the limit is it's always possible to make a cloud-chat for someone who was determined.

Last edited by samq64 (Jan. 31, 2021 19:35:43)

ssvbxx2

To show how easy it is to encrypt messages into numbers and then decrypt them, I made this project: https://scratch-mit-edu.ezproxyberklee.flo.org/projects/481494410/.

So if the character limit was increased, it sorta matters because letters can be encrypted into numbers and decrypted back into letters. However, it impacts the maximum string length, which depends on the encryption used. More information in the Notes and Credits system of the project.

samq64

I already knew how to encode strings, but thanks anyway! The problem is it can still only store 128 characters on a cloud variable. Whitch is why it should be increased. 128 characters is good for most things, but not good enough for cloud saving systems.

You're encoding method is better than mine, thanks!

Last edited by samq64 (Nov. 13, 2021 13:43:42)

DentInTheWall

have you considered that scratch is a publicly funded project and that servers are expensive? although simple strings of numbers aren't that large, i wouldn't see a need for you to store more than 256 digits. if you would like to do cloud computing, then scratch is not where you should be.

samq64

Well, cloud saving systems need a lot of cloud space.

the2000

samq64 wrote:
Well, cloud saving systems need a lot of cloud space.

The solution is not to make a cloud saving system. It's something you should just give up on; no matter how large the character limit is, it won't be able to support an infinite number of players.

samq64

Ok. I guess I'll have to make a save code system instead, it's just so inconvenient for the users.

Discuss Scratch