Disclose Trending/Front Page Algorithm

apple502j

Trending and Front Page algorithm should be disclosed and open-sourced. This has some benefits:
- Everyone can understand it and ensure that there is no bias.
- Those who want to improve the system can make detailed suggestions (or even implement it.)
- Scratch Team can also check if someone abused because they know how it works.

Cheating is not a problem for reasons stated below:
- It is possible to cheat without source code.
- ST can still ban users for altering the statistics maliciously.
- If there is a flaw with the system, there is now a possibility that good person will discover before bad person, allowing quicker patches.

Jeffalo

agreed, while some people might think this will lead to easier exploiting, as apple mentioned, good people will be able to find bugs and patch them, much faster than just waiting for a bad guy to go abuse a bug.

security by obscurity shouldn't be the way to go for something like the trending page.

CrystalKeeper7

Well realistically it should be an algorithm that you can't abuse! For example, if it just depends on if you are getting a lot of loves, then that can't be exploited.

gosoccerboy5

CrystalKeeper7 wrote:
Well realistically it should be an algorithm that you can't abuse! For example, if it just depends on if you are getting a lot of loves, then that can't be exploited.

A lot of people are of the mind that it is in fact exploitable. It might be hard to design one that might not be exploitable.

secretagent123

Support. I can't think of anything bad that could arise from this.

lovecodeabc

secretagent123 wrote:
Support. I can't think of anything bad that could arise from this.

Maximouse

Support, the reasons you provided are good and the current trending algorithm is terrible (popular projects can't get on trending).

spocite

Support! Not many bad things can happen from this…

300 posts I DID IT!

PaddlerGames

Semi-support. I think the Scratch Team should be more transparent about how the Explore/Trending/Search page algorithm works, but they shouldn't make it open source. They should talk about how why projects sometimes don't show on the Explore/Trending/Search pages, like they did for the front page in this topic: https://scratch-mit-edu.ezproxyberklee.flo.org/discuss/topic/384726/

Maximouse

PaddlerGames wrote:
Semi-support. I think the Scratch Team should be more transparent about how the Explore/Trending/Search page algorithm works, but they shouldn't make it open source. They should talk about how why projects sometimes don't show on the Explore/Trending/Search pages, like they did for the front page in this topic: https://scratch-mit-edu.ezproxyberklee.flo.org/discuss/topic/384726/

I think it should be open source, so the community could improve it.

Chiroyce

apple502j wrote:
Trending and Front Page algorithm should be disclosed and open-sourced. This has some benefits:
- Everyone can understand it and ensure that there is no bias.
- Those who want to improve the system can make detailed suggestions (or even implement it.)
- Scratch Team can also check if someone abused because they know how it works.

Cheating is not a problem for reasons stated below:
- It is possible to cheat without source code.
- ST can still ban users for altering the statistics maliciously.
- If there is a flaw with the system, there is now a possibility that good person will discover before bad person, allowing quicker patches.

That’s a good reason. We have to show this to the ST.

Chiroyce

Maximouse wrote:
I think it should be open source, so the community could improve it.

Scratch itself is open source, so I don’t get any reason(s) why this cannot be.

thisaccountisameme

I’ve heard @za-chary say that no one really knows how the trending algorithm works. Besides, people could find exploits. No support.

Maximouse

thisaccountisameme wrote:
I’ve heard @za-chary say that no one really knows how the trending algorithm works.

The people who made it know how it works (obviously).

thisaccountisameme

Maximouse wrote:
thisaccountisameme wrote:
I’ve heard @za-chary say that no one really knows how the trending algorithm works.
The people who made it know how it works (obviously).

Maybe, but I don't feel too comfortable with it. I mean, it would drive the Scratch apart, some who understand it may exploit it, or, if the exact code is shown, even make “Scratch mods” that more or less guarantee a Scratcher a spot on the trending page. The trending page is controversial as it is, and with people knowing exactly how to exploit it, it would be like the resharing scam but then times worse, because rather than a rumor, it would be a straight up exploit that all of the older coders know, and since so many people would know it, it would basically be half of Scratch's projects competing by pure chance to get on the front page.

EDIT: Corrected spelling and grammar.

Last edited by thisaccountisameme (Dec. 30, 2020 15:24:51)

bitcode100

I sort of support this. I think it would be a good idea for the trending algorithm to be open to the public, because that way the entire community would be able to try to pitch in ideas and solve issues. But I don't think it is a good idea to have it change-able by the community because that would just bring in more issues. Even if it is being monitored, it will still take time for the monitors to detect people who just randomly changed the code of the trending page and be able to fix it.

Ihatr

bitcode100 wrote:
Even if it is being monitored, it will still take time for the monitors to detect people who just randomly changed the code of the trending page and be able to fix it.

That's not how places like GitHub work. What people do is they edit the code, then submit a pull request (i think), and the Scratch Team themselves read through the code and then decide if they want to merge it.

Maximouse

Ihatr wrote:
bitcode100 wrote:
Even if it is being monitored, it will still take time for the monitors to detect people who just randomly changed the code of the trending page and be able to fix it.
That's not how places like GitHub work. What people do is they edit the code, then submit a pull request (i think), and the Scratch Team themselves read through the code and then decide if they want to merge it.

Yes, that's right – the ST would still have to review any changes.

lm1996

Support, you have stated your case well and your points are valid, drawing me in.

gosoccerboy5

Maximouse wrote:
PaddlerGames wrote:
Semi-support. I think the Scratch Team should be more transparent about how the Explore/Trending/Search page algorithm works, but they shouldn't make it open source. They should talk about how why projects sometimes don't show on the Explore/Trending/Search pages, like they did for the front page in this topic: https://scratch-mit-edu.ezproxyberklee.flo.org/discuss/topic/384726/
I think it should be open source, so the community could improve it.

Yeah, or the community could manipulate it on their behalf. I'd draw the line at disclosing it, if at all..
oh boy I'm gonna get rekt for saying that
see what I mean

Last edited by gosoccerboy5 (Dec. 30, 2020 22:27:19)

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