Mark projects that were heavily advertised as NFE [READ OP BEFORE REPLYING]

ProjectFactory

waitwhat2288 wrote:
As far as I know, you actually don't get any sort of warning or punishment when one of your projects gets NFE'd, which I don't think would really prevent certain people from doing this sort of tactic.

I'd say that would be a benefit since if an advertised project gets silently NFE'd, they won't try to bypass the ban. At most, they'll just be confused and wonder, “Why am I not getting views?”

waitwhat2288 wrote:
Furthermore, I'm confused as to why the project per se is the one that's getting into trouble here. In general, if you spam somewhere on the site, you either get a mute or ban with no exceptions, and I personally feel like the appropriate action to take against this would be exactly that.

I'm not making this suggestion as something that should replace the current methods of dealing with spam & advertising; rather, it's more of an additional punishment; not only do you get alerted (or even banned!) for advertising, but your project is NFE'd, meaning it won't get on trending (or the front page!), resulting in less views (a rather fitting consequence, as people mostly advertise for that sweet, sweet clout).

Thanks for the feedback, I've added this to the OP

Last edited by ProjectFactory (Jan. 29, 2024 02:41:02)

Minoru07

I respectfully disagree. Unfortunately, the scratch algorithm is not very good and it makes it borderline impossible for an unknown scratcher to have their projects become popular without advertising it a lot. Even if the project is super high quality and very high effort, it probably won't become popular without advertisements. For that reason I do not support this because even though advertisers are very annoying they do have a reason why they do that.

ProjectFactory

Minoru07 wrote:
Unfortunately, the scratch algorithm is not very good and it makes it borderline impossible for an unknown scratcher to have their projects become popular without advertising it a lot. Even if the project is super high quality and very high effort, it probably won't become popular without advertisements.

It's unfortunate how that seems to be the case, but I have a hot take: the Scratch algorithm does exactly what it's meant to do: reflect the interests of the users. The projects that usually get on trending without need of advertising (i.e. story animations & generic platformers) are simple to make (allowing for ludicrous amounts of output) and appeal to the interests of many Scratchers. Therefore, those types of projects usually get on Trending easily. High-quality & high-effort projects, on the other hand, are more complex to make (resulting in lower output) and contain lots of originality, which does not appeal to as many Scratchers as the type of projects I've mentioned previously. Therefore, those types of projects usually don't garner many views, let alone enough to reach Trending. In essence, the algorithm does not recommend high-quality and high-effort projects as much as more generic projects because the algorithm's main job is to cater to the preferences of the users. Just because something is original, high quality, and high-effort doesn't mean people will be interested in it.

Sorry for the tangent. Onto the part where I actually talk about my suggestion at least somewhat:

Minoru07 wrote:
For that reason I do not support this because even though advertisers are very annoying they do have a reason why they do that.

Lack of popularity (or an audience) is not a justification for advertising. Whether done with good or bad intentions, advertising is still using someone's success for your own personal gain. It's considered spam and is not allowed on Scratch.

Scratch's Terms of Use wrote:
Harmful commercial use includes spamming or repeated advertisement through projects, comments, or forum posts.

Last edited by ProjectFactory (Jan. 29, 2024 03:46:08)

yadayadayadagoodbye

Wait till you hear about how I can advertise projects of other people.

can't wait to get everyone NFE'd /j

ProjectFactory

yadayadayadagoodbye wrote:
Wait till you hear about how I can advertise projects of other people.

can't wait to get everyone NFE'd /j

Heeheeheeha someone already mentioned that and I responded with this

Past ProjectFactory wrote:
That is a rare edge case scenario (why would anyone advertise stuff that isn't theirs?) but if someone provides which account advertised what project, maybe the ST could compare the advertiser's account and the project creator's account? Maybe the private stuff like IP

Minoru07

ProjectFactory wrote:
The projects that usually get on trending without need of advertising (i.e. story animations & generic platformers) are simple to make (allowing for ludicrous amounts of output) and appeal to the interests of many Scratchers. …. High-quality & high-effort projects, on the other hand… does not appeal to as many Scratchers as the type of projects I've mentioned previously.

I have to say that I believe the reason that there are so many generic platformers on trending is because of the sheer amount of them, not necessarily because people would rather play those. Because of the massive amount of generic platformers constantly shared on scratch, they end up on trending far more often than most other projects. I believe most scratchers would rather see a more original and higher quality project than a project they just saw but with different colors. But I think this is straying a bit far from the point. The point of scratch is not to promote “more fair” chances of being popular, but rather to teach children to code. If projects on trending 80% the same then we will have scratchers just copy and pasting the same project over and over again to become popular rather than trying out new things to learn new stuff about coding.
Another point I feel like I should bring up is that scratch isn't necessarily about punishing people who don't follow the rules (and it's even worse when they don't even know). Punishment will just discourage people from going onto scratch, and in the case of NFE'ing a project, the scratcher punished won't even know about the punishment because scratch doesn't notify people about NFEs, so they won't learn. If anything, NFE'ing these projects will only encourage advertisements because scratchers will continue to advertise when they don't see their project getting views. To add on to this, NFEs aren't meant to be a form of punishment, instead they are meant to just make projects that aren't for everyone less viewable. Actual forms of punishment meant for scratch are warnings, mutes, and bans. So even if you don't think ads are justifiable, you have to agree that NFEs aren't meant to be punishments. Just because people advertised their projects, that doesn't mean that people shouldn't see it.

yadayadayadagoodbye

ProjectFactory wrote:
yadayadayadagoodbye wrote:
Wait till you hear about how I can advertise projects of other people.

can't wait to get everyone NFE'd /j
Heeheeheeha someone already mentioned that and I responded with this
Past ProjectFactory wrote:
That is a rare edge case scenario (why would anyone advertise stuff that isn't theirs?) but if someone provides which account advertised what project, maybe the ST could compare the advertiser's account and the project creator's account? Maybe the private stuff like IP

Well obviously to get them NFE'd
You'd be surprised how many people use alts to advertise their projects, and dont talk about IP, these accounts already use VPNs to bypass the whole IP ban stuff.

Now, obviously, we could still prevent some of these “mass advertising”, right? However, how do you plan on storing this information in the first time? Would ST implement an entirely new counter per project on how many times a comment with the same IP as the project creator had advertised the project? Its not exactly possible to check warnings, as alts (on the same IP) can easily bypass this.

Ig this would be useful in the rare case where a project is advertised so commonly that you would know it just by seeing it, but thats so rare that I don't believe it has happened even once before.

ProjectFactory

yadayadayadagoodbye wrote:
Well obviously to get them NFE'd

I'm aware of that, just forgot to mention that when making the reply

yadayadayadagoodbye wrote:
You'd be surprised how many people use alts to advertise their projects, and dont talk about IP, these accounts already use VPNs to bypass the whole IP ban stuff.

Oh. Darn. I forgot VPNs existed. I would say that most VPNs cost money and aren't worth it if you only use them to bypass IP bans on a kids' programming website, but I'd be surprised how many people use VPNs (or switch routers).

I gotta go to sleep soon so I'll respond to the rest of ur points later

Last edited by ProjectFactory (Jan. 29, 2024 05:48:04)

Gamer_Logan819

No support. Featured projects would be no more.

Scratchedbyyou

I think this might work, people who spam advertisements in the wrong places shouldn't have more views than people who advertise in the right places or don't even advertise at all. I may allow advertising on my stuff, but I have seen a lot of other people who don't like it on their stuff.

A_Nyan_In_Space

ProjectFactory wrote:
yadayadayadagoodbye wrote:
Well obviously to get them NFE'd
I'm aware of that, just forgot to mention that when making the reply

yadayadayadagoodbye wrote:
You'd be surprised how many people use alts to advertise their projects, and dont talk about IP, these accounts already use VPNs to bypass the whole IP ban stuff.
Oh. Darn. I forgot VPNs existed. I would say that most VPNs cost money and aren't worth it if you only use them to bypass IP bans on a kids' programming website, but I'd be surprised how many people use VPNs (or switch routers).

I gotta go to sleep soon so I'll respond to the rest of ur points later

I have a free VPN, can't tell you because it's a browser extension (sort of), but it super easy to get a VPN for free. Just search “VPN” on the extensions thing and you'll get lots of results, most of which are free.

ProjectFactory

yadayadayadagoodbye wrote:
However, how do you plan on storing this information in the first time? Would ST implement an entirely new counter per project on how many times a comment with the same IP as the project creator had advertised the project? Its not exactly possible to check warnings, as alts (on the same IP) can easily bypass this.

I'd say this would be handled on a report basis. Also I kinda don't understand the whole “alts from the same IP can bypass this part”

Gamer_Logan819 wrote:
No support. Featured projects would be no more.

I don't get it.

A_Nyan_In_Space wrote:
I have a free VPN, can't tell you because it's a browser extension (sort of), but it super easy to get a VPN for free. Just search “VPN” on the extensions thing and you'll get lots of results, most of which are free.

Free VPNS? In this day and age!? How unheard of! /j
But yeah that does make the problem quite harder. Can't really think of a solution for this tbh

also bump

ProjectFactory

I wrote:
bump

Last edited by ProjectFactory (Jan. 30, 2024 06:41:08)

A_Nyan_In_Space

ProjectFactory wrote:
yadayadayadagoodbye wrote:
However, how do you plan on storing this information in the first time? Would ST implement an entirely new counter per project on how many times a comment with the same IP as the project creator had advertised the project? Its not exactly possible to check warnings, as alts (on the same IP) can easily bypass this.
I'd say this would be handled on a report basis. Also I kinda don't understand the whole “alts from the same IP can bypass this part”

Alts could spam their main account's project, and the projects wouldn't get NFE'd bc it's a different account. But it would have to be a different IP to bypass the IP chedck.

undeterminstic

A_Nyan_In_Space wrote:
ProjectFactory wrote:
yadayadayadagoodbye wrote:
However, how do you plan on storing this information in the first time? Would ST implement an entirely new counter per project on how many times a comment with the same IP as the project creator had advertised the project? Its not exactly possible to check warnings, as alts (on the same IP) can easily bypass this.
I'd say this would be handled on a report basis. Also I kinda don't understand the whole “alts from the same IP can bypass this part”
Alts could spam their main account's project, and the projects wouldn't get NFE'd bc it's a different account. But it would have to be a different IP to bypass the IP chedck.

adding on to this one could also clear local storage or cookies if say the ST decides to have a cookie to determine if two devices are the same.

UnstablyCorrect

Would this really work though? Someone advertises, sees they get like 50 views even though the project is NFE and just thinks ¨advertising good getting views normally bad.¨ It wouldn´t really stop the view influx from advertising. People wouldn't really notice the NFE and as far as I remember index bugs do exist so it wouldn't show for atleast like 3 hours but by then its too late to matter because most people who advertise don't actually understand that its bad to advertise, and such can be stopped advertising by telliing them its against the rules to advertise.

TL;DR this probally wouldn't matter

yadayadayadagoodbye

A_Nyan_In_Space wrote:
ProjectFactory wrote:
yadayadayadagoodbye wrote:
However, how do you plan on storing this information in the first time? Would ST implement an entirely new counter per project on how many times a comment with the same IP as the project creator had advertised the project? Its not exactly possible to check warnings, as alts (on the same IP) can easily bypass this.
I'd say this would be handled on a report basis. Also I kinda don't understand the whole “alts from the same IP can bypass this part”
Alts could spam their main account's project, and the projects wouldn't get NFE'd bc it's a different account. But it would have to be a different IP to bypass the IP chedck.

Untrue, I'm asking how you would store the fact that the project got advertised, in which if you store it on the project, it would add the need to add another variable, which while it seems simple, might not be as easy as it seems since we don't know how project data is stored.

The only other way (which is the way ST normally uses) would be checking warnings, however, this method can be bypassed by alt accounts even if they have the same IP.

WindowsAdmin

bump

WindowsAdmin

bump

iiucandyfloss

ProjectFactory wrote:
I noticed a project won't name and shame that was HEAVILY advertised (in the most annoying ways possible AND on projects that clearly stated “No advertising”, I must add) and rated FE.

That's because the project did not fit the criteria necessary for it to be marked as NFE (Not For Everyone).

ProjectFactory wrote:
I highly believe that projects that were heavily advertised in places where ads were unwanted should be marked as NFE regardless of whether or not the project itself qualifies for an FE rating.

It's quite unfair for someone's project to be taken away from Scratch search engines and become blacklisted from getting onto the front page just because someone else advertised their project. It's not the project creator's fault, so why are they getting punished for something that is happening through no fault of their own?

ProjectFactory wrote:
(In the rare edge case scenario where someone heavily advertises someone else's project, the Scratch Team could compare some unique identifier–like the IPs–of both people.)

Imagine doing this for thousands of people. Advertising is done by many people on Scratch. The ST can't do this for everyone, in every case.
Also, what's wrong with advertising your own project? As long as it's allowed in the place it's being advertised in, the act is completely harmless and gains the user a bit of recognition.

ProjectFactory wrote:
Advertising is generally not allowed on Scratch because it is effectively spam. It's just a link to your project, and nothing else. Despite this, advertising is also highly effective in attracting views. When a project gets a good enough viewing rate, it gets put on trending (maybe even the front page!) by Scratch's algorithm.

Generally not allowed. Yes, it is usually not allowed, but sometimes it is, and we must consider rare circumstances too, within reasonable limits.
Yes, so it is unconstructive, but then again, randomly chatting on someone's project (preferably the person you're talking to's project) is unconstructive, (it's just a random conversation) but it's allowed and is not discouraged.
Not necessarily. A project must get a certain number of views, loves and attention in general, in a short amount of time, to be put on the top few rows of trending.
Yes, sometimes.

ProjectFactory wrote:
The problem here is that you're basically gaining popularity by a method that is not only a violation of the CG, but also highly unfair to those who use honest (and more morally righteous, I say) means to get views. Thus, my suggestion is to mark projects that were heavily advertised in places where ads were unwanted as NFE regardless of whether or not the project itself qualifies for an FE rating.

It's not always a violation of the CG.
Why? They can advertise too; if they choose not to advertise, they cannot complain about other people advertising and taking attention away from their projects, since it was their choice. Also, adverts tend to be ignored.
What is considered “heavily advertised”?
It is not the project creator's fault, as said earlier.
That destroys the point of the NFE rating. Projects must earn the rating, not receive it through no fault of their own.

ProjectFactory wrote:
Rather, it [this suggestion] is supposed to serve as an additional measure that takes care of heavily-advertised projects gaining popularity, which is currently not covered by the current methods.

Popularity is not inherently bad; this post [the OP] makes it seem so. It is mainly to deflect popularity that came from lawful or unlawful advertising, which is not necessary nor fair. There are projects that have earned popularity, the popularity coming from those who believed that the project deserved it and therefore shared it with others. And righteous advertising takes effort. It is not easy to find places where advertising is allowed, and make the advert look interesting at the same time.

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