BobRocks20 wrote:

And here's where you come in:

rdococ wrote:

The Scratch Team has a very clear vision of what they want Scratch to be. Scratch is designed to be incredibly simple; kids as young as 8 years old must be able to pick up Scratch on their own and express themselves with stories, animations and games, as well as understand each other's code well enough to use it in their own projects.

Flexibility and power are also goals, but they take a backseat to this core vision. Any suggestion you make has to be so good that it outweighs the challenge of 8 year olds facing it for the first time, useful enough for Scratch's core vision of kids creating stories, animations and games, as well as supporting the sharing of projects, collaboration, and kids learning from each other's code, as well as outweighing these factors enough to justify the weight of simply having an extra feature.

Let's Chance was made to simplify probabilities so you don't have to do any difficult workarounds. Kids know what dice are. I bet they will have a basic idea of what the “roll die” blocks do the instant they see them. I have said this before and I will say it again: the children who had access to Let's Chance were able to make stories, animations, and games using these blocks (source: the thesis, link is in the first post).

That is indeed the Scratch Team's vision, and “Let's Chance” works very well to fulfil that vision. But you're assuming that I agree with the vision. While kids should be creating fun and interesting projects on Scratch, the Scratch Team massively prioritises self-expression over learning computational thinking, and I think that's a huge mistake.

BobRocks20 wrote:

You can see how this meets Scratch's design goals here.
If you don't support this please provide a valid reason and don't say that workarounds exist or that children should learn probability themselves using the existing blocks.

But they should. Scratch has a stated goal to teach computational thinking, not probabilistic thinking, and extensions that solve computational problems for the user make this more difficult.

To borrow terminology from the thesis, the “low level building blocks” to “black box” scale is relative to what you're trying to get kids to do. And while the “Let's Chance” extension blocks are in the middle for probabilistic thinking (though even that is debatable), they're a total black box for computational thinking, and that is more important in the context of Scratch.

BobRocks20 wrote:

If a project with Let's Chance blocks is shared with the community, people will have the option to remix that project and change the percentages set in the Let's Chance blocks. By doing this they are learning from that project's code and becoming capable of probabilistic thinking.

Remixing a project and changing some Let's Chance percentages isn't going to make you capable of computational thinking - on the other hand, seeing how it uses ‘pick random’ to select from a weighted list of choices certainly is.

rdococ wrote:

-responding to all his counterarguments, snip-

If Scratch promotes computational thinking and not probabilistic thinking, then why did Manuj Dhariwal (who wrote the thesis), plan out Let's Chance for Scratch? Why did Scratch's co-founder Mitchel Resnick decide to become the advisor for this work? To add on to that question, why did he certify the thesis?

With the increasing relevance of AI, and the fact that programmers use computational thinking to make AI, it would make sense to also consider probabilistic thinking, which is essential for AI because it needs that kind of thinking to make decisions in case of uncertainty.

I believe I'll have to stop here, since this topic is getting derailed. I like how your counterpoints made me think about Scratch as a whole in a new way, and though it may not seem like it to you I understand your reasons for not supporting. One thing won't change, though: I still support Let's Chance.

No arguments beyond this point!

BobRocks20 wrote:

With the increasing relevance of AI, and the fact that programmers use computational thinking to make AI, it would make sense to also consider probabilistic thinking, which is essential for AI because it needs that kind of thinking to make decisions in case of uncertainty.

I don't think probabilistic reasoning is the same as probabilistic computation

ajskateboarder wrote:

BobRocks20 wrote:

With the increasing relevance of AI, and the fact that programmers use computational thinking to make AI, it would make sense to also consider probabilistic thinking, which is essential for AI because it needs that kind of thinking to make decisions in case of uncertainty.

I don't think probabilistic reasoning is the same as probabilistic computation

Oh! Well TBH I'm not an expert in computer science and all that so I'd like it if you explained further on my profile. RIght now I'm concerned about getting back on topic so people can add on to my suggestion.

bump

Bump

Bump, with some minor-ish revisions to the original post.

Mr_Woomy wrote:

The_Game_ wrote:

Are they in any way different from

(pick random (1) to (10))

from a quick glance it looks more child friendly of a rng system but the workaround is probably easy enough as is

you can make a RNG system like this:

set [RNG ] to (pick random (1) to (100))
if <[RNG] > [10]> then 
do thing
else
if <[RNG] > [20]> then 
do other thing
  

else
do third thing
end
end

dogfish517 wrote:

Mr_Woomy wrote:

The_Game_ wrote:

Are they in any way different from

(pick random (1) to (10))

from a quick glance it looks more child friendly of a rng system but the workaround is probably easy enough as is

you can make a RNG system like this:

set [RNG ] to (pick random (1) to (100))
if <[RNG] > [10]> then 
do thing
else
if <[RNG] > [20]> then 
do other thing
  

else
do third thing
end
end

That’s kind of what this does? But also not at all what this does

It lets you set the values of each chance easily as well as modularity set the likeliness of each option using a list, as well as what it outputs

We really can’t learn more than this without an official release

I have some good news though about this!
I have a high likelihood of getting into mit, if I do I’ll make sure to work with the people there on getting this thing to the public

But in the meantime I had an idea
If this is possible to make in blockly wouldn’t it be possible to remake in a scratch mod?
If so could we get the developer of penguin mod involved?

Do you really need to say

The Obscure MIT Project by Lifelong Kindergarten of Scratch

ajskateboarder wrote:

Do you really need to say

The Obscure MIT Project by Lifelong Kindergarten of Scratch

Why does it matter?

7salad3salad wrote:

ajskateboarder wrote:

Do you really need to say

The Obscure MIT Project by Lifelong Kindergarten of Scratch

Why does it matter?

Not much, it's just a redundant title

I made a call to action post about this on the penguin mod wiki

This is in emense danger of becoming lost media

While we wait for them to respond, does anyone have any ideas on a way we could possibly acess the github?
My school blocked the wayback machine but even if it wasn’t blocked I doubt it would have been archived

Okay I found A 167 PAGE PDF from the university of Chile about it

Only problem, it’s all in Spanish
https://repositorio.uchile.cl/bitstream/handle/2250/187390/Concientizacion-a-ninas-y-ninos-chilenos-de-10-a-12-anos-sobre-clasificacion-y-algoritmo.pdf?sequence=1

This likely contains a lot of info about it but, I can barely speak Spanish

Does anyone here speak Spanish?

cookieclickerer33 wrote:

I made a call to action post about this on the penguin mod wiki

This is in emense danger of becoming lost media

While we wait for them to respond, does anyone have any ideas on a way we could possibly acess the github?
My school blocked the wayback machine but even if it wasn’t blocked I doubt it would have been archived

I don't think this was ever released to the public. You might want to try contacting the people who made the extension: https://www-media-mit-edu.ezproxyberklee.flo.org/people/manuj/overview/

cookieclickerer33 wrote:

Okay I found A 167 PAGE PDF from the university of Chile about it

Only problem, it’s all in Spanish
https://repositorio.uchile.cl/bitstream/handle/2250/187390/Concientizacion-a-ninas-y-ninos-chilenos-de-10-a-12-anos-sobre-clasificacion-y-algoritmo.pdf?sequence=1

This likely contains a lot of info about it but, I can barely speak Spanish

Does anyone here speak Spanish?

I know a bit of Spanish, and it seems that this is about general ML, not probability. Let's Chance is not mentioned in the paper

alwayspaytaxes wrote:

cookieclickerer33 wrote:

I made a call to action post about this on the penguin mod wiki

This is in emense danger of becoming lost media

While we wait for them to respond, does anyone have any ideas on a way we could possibly acess the github?
My school blocked the wayback machine but even if it wasn’t blocked I doubt it would have been archived

I don't think this was ever released to the public. You might want to try contacting the people who made the extension: https://www-media-mit-edu.ezproxyberklee.flo.org/people/manuj/overview/

It was, but the GitHub page now redirects to a 404

cookieclickerer33 wrote:

alwayspaytaxes wrote:

cookieclickerer33 wrote:

I made a call to action post about this on the penguin mod wiki

This is in emense danger of becoming lost media

While we wait for them to respond, does anyone have any ideas on a way we could possibly acess the github?
My school blocked the wayback machine but even if it wasn’t blocked I doubt it would have been archived

I don't think this was ever released to the public. You might want to try contacting the people who made the extension: https://www-media-mit-edu.ezproxyberklee.flo.org/people/manuj/overview/

It was, but the GitHub page now redirects to a 404

Oh, what's the GitHub? I can try to acces it through WayBack Machine

alwayspaytaxes wrote:

cookieclickerer33 wrote:

alwayspaytaxes wrote:

cookieclickerer33 wrote:

I made a call to action post about this on the penguin mod wiki

This is in emense danger of becoming lost media

While we wait for them to respond, does anyone have any ideas on a way we could possibly acess the github?
My school blocked the wayback machine but even if it wasn’t blocked I doubt it would have been archived

I don't think this was ever released to the public. You might want to try contacting the people who made the extension: https://www-media-mit-edu.ezproxyberklee.flo.org/people/manuj/overview/

It was, but the GitHub page now redirects to a 404

Oh, what's the GitHub? I can try to acces it through WayBack Machine

http://letschance.github.io/
It’s this
I’ll try and shoot them an email

cookieclickerer33 wrote:

alwayspaytaxes wrote:

cookieclickerer33 wrote:

alwayspaytaxes wrote:

cookieclickerer33 wrote:

I made a call to action post about this on the penguin mod wiki

This is in emense danger of becoming lost media

While we wait for them to respond, does anyone have any ideas on a way we could possibly acess the github?
My school blocked the wayback machine but even if it wasn’t blocked I doubt it would have been archived

I don't think this was ever released to the public. You might want to try contacting the people who made the extension: https://www-media-mit-edu.ezproxyberklee.flo.org/people/manuj/overview/

It was, but the GitHub page now redirects to a 404

Oh, what's the GitHub? I can try to acces it through WayBack Machine

http://letschance.github.io/
It’s this
I’ll try and shoot them an email

I checked Wayback Machine and there are no captures
Also you should ask the TurboWarp developers too about Let's Chance because PenguinMod is a 13+ website.

ajskateboarder wrote:

7salad3salad wrote:

ajskateboarder wrote:

Do you really need to say

The Obscure MIT Project by Lifelong Kindergarten of Scratch

Why does it matter?

Not much, it's just a redundant title

This topic needs attention.

I doubt the turbowarp devs would do that, they are really busy

The penguin mod devs seem to be the perfect fit tho, and yeah the site is 13 plus because of their silly decisions in design