Unlocked wrote:

Zro716 wrote:

47 (including you). In your opinion, you've formed a small army with the potential for grassroots politics. But that number pales in comparison to the number of people who either accept, don't care about, or haven't noticed the update (over 4000). As long as those 4000+ users don't complain about the update, which so far they have not, then the update has done its job.

When you say 4000, I think you mean 4 million.

I'm making an educated guess for how many active users are on Scratch, not how many accounts were made. (active as in doing something in the past month or so)

Shiverberry wrote:

Zro716, WHY do you think this topic has 36 pages??? If I'm correct, The majority of people who got the nerve to post do NOT like the update. Not to take sides, but I'm with 900miles.

well, check if you are correct

Zro716 wrote:

900miles wrote:

Zro716 wrote:

Logical fallacies are the bane of honest debate. Are you implying we should debate with exaggerated claims and silly anecdotes? If you say we should be more serious in our posts, start with yourself: you're putting in xP's and xD's as if you're not taking this debate seriously. Get rid of those, then tell me what exact part of the update you don't like, and give a logical, realistic argument as to why you don't agree with it. So far all I've heard from you and scratchifier is your own subjective testimonies for putting popularity above learning from programming, then scoffing the points made against it by pointing out unrealistic flaws and giving weak counterarguments that offshoot the debate into oblivion.

If you want my opinion, here it is: deal with it. If you're not “popular”, deal with it. If you're not happy with losing a couple numbers, deal with it. You're better off focusing on the abilities of a Scratcher than the social rank of him or her. You're better off appreciating what you have and can do than lamenting what you don't have and can't do.

edit: I think I should refer you back to this post.

*cough* Fallacy Fallacy *cough*

Zro716 wrote:

“appealing to authority”

what are we even fighting for anymore

Unlocked wrote:

5. Your whole argument was made to distract from the conversation. The point of the fallacy post was not to say that you made a logical fallacy. It was to point out that there are more sides of it that you were saying and that you were making it sound like a 2-sided argument when it was not.

I think that's enough for now.

Umm…my argument was not made to distract from the conversation. As you can see, I have correctly (and sarcastically) predicted the following: users fighting eachother from a list of so-called “logical fallacies”.

Zro716 wrote:

Scratchifier wrote:

1. Taking the follow numbers away from the profile page does nothing. Well, it does do something. It annoys me because I have to load one more page just to check more followers. This means that I'll hardly know when somebody unfollows me. I like to know if that happens because I don't want to be advertising something to repeatedly and annoying people, being too active… etc. However, about the people who are obsessed with followers, how will that discourage them? If they have enough time to spam several hundred people with follow requests, how is clicking one little button going to get them to stop? And taking the numbers away doesn't mean that they don't want followers any more.

it's purpose is to annoy you out of caring so much about your following count. sure it won't directly stop spam follows but that's not its job.

2. I like to keep track of everything on my profile and projects so that I know what people like, what types of projects encourage what types of activity, and so on. For example, I can tell you that my Updates project got quite a number of random comments on my profile, love its on my other projects, and not many love its for itself (compared to my other things of course). Now I know that disguising a game as an Updates project is a terrible marketing ploy. If there were no numbers, then how would I know not to do that again?

You drive a valid point that numbers help to summarize activity across our profile and projects. However the anecdote you gave should have reflected your use of the following/follower numbers, not your projects.

3. When you visit a new profile, you usually have no idea how good or bad a user is at Scratch. Should you check out their projects? Should you not? Is the user just getting all of their thumbnails from another user that makes them look better at Scratch? Well, to determine this, many [weasel word– how many is “many”?] Scratchers look at the number of followers. If there are a lot of followers in a short amount of time, then you know that it's probably worth checking out their projects! I usually will compare the number of followers to the joined date so that I know if the given Scratcher is something new in the world of Scratch. I'm not saying that it's not worth checking out projects if the user doesn't have many followers, but I subconsciously do this a lot and it's really annoying if I need to click twice more to do this! That's a big waste of time! (Thanks to other Scratchers for reminding me of this).

It's good that you pointed out that checking projects is accounted for in the worth of a user, but it's not good that your habits contradict it. If something is a “big waste of time” for you, you should reflect that Scratch is the same big waste of time because you're not getting paid for projects, you're not earning social respect in real life, and you're overall just doing it for fun and learning. And so adding one mere click to figure out the follower/following number is not such a big waste of time (unless you have dial-up speed).

Furthermore, it is okay to say no once in a while to someone whose popularity is booming because of a cool welcoming project, because you can wait until they testify their true potential. I cannot tell how many times I have seen people follow a new user simply because of their name and logo, then are disappointed when the user leaves because they didn't feel the praise they got earlier from getting followed was earned. You see what I'm saying?

4. In a matter of minutes, I've several Scratchers have all gotten annoyed at this change. They are also some reputable Scratchers, such as: VoltageGames, WILL_WAM, ELSA_THE_CONQUEROR… need I continue?

Yep.

List of more annoyed Scratchers: -Flash-, TheAnimationShow, Flygon12345678, -Because_Im_Batman-, PRETTY_GIRL, dinocatmeow, SnowKittyartist, helloyowazzup, BLACKSWIFT, THEGENERALESS, aminameow4, GetWithTheProgram, MTCRAFTER, RED-drag0n, Lilry1, austin360, SUPERDOGGY, SIFEF, sophielymes527, Fox16, HAnthony, AQUAFLAME, -THEDOCTOR-, GRANNYCOOKIES, andrewjl, tiny288, Infinity-, Eugenbross, gcenac, TheMistyPuppy2000, DARKCRYSTALBALL, Epicness123, JETPAC, flexaxu, __–Programmer–__, MiniMacro, L-Rignity, jrezneckbhds, violin16, hacker, Teanaway, Story_Teller, Kreyos (KILOZ)…

Now, how many Scratchers are there? How many don't like this? I'm going to let you count and see how annoying that is.

As a simple note, Scratchers in all capitals are well known Scratchers who have worked hard for their popularity. They are all annoyed at you right now. Is this what you wanted?

47 (including you). In your opinion, you've formed a small army with the potential for grassroots politics. But that number pales in comparison to the number of people who either accept, don't care about, or haven't noticed the update (over 4000). As long as those 4000+ users don't complain about the update, which so far they have not, then the update has done its job.

Yeah… well, it hasn't. It's just continued to annoy me.

About my project point… that is mainly what I use it for. I use it to judge what is interesting to other Scratchers that I do and what isn't.

About not getting rewarded with Scratch, sure, it doesn't help me. However, it's fun to see your creations/profile get more attention as you improve with Scratch… is it not for you?

And no, I don't really see exactly what you're saying with the second paragraph in the next response… perhaps change the wording around because I'm having trouble with the formatting of your sentences.

For the list I've made: perhaps that was a mistake. But then again, you can't compare my number with the total possible active users on the site. That's not a fair number, because you're assuming that all of the people who don't use the forums or didn't see this like the update or don't care.

Oh, btw I have something to say about this “logical fallacy” site. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/begging-the-question

I don't like the update but it doesn't matter either way. I just felt as though it was easier to have it already tell you the stats.

Superdoggy wrote:

Umm…my argument was not made to distract from the conversation. As you can see, I have correctly (and sarcastically) predicted the following: users fighting eachother from a list of so-called “logical fallacies”.

please fix your grammar. I seriously cannot understand what you are saying.

Unlocked wrote:

Superdoggy wrote:

Umm…my argument was not made to distract from the conversation. As you can see, I have correctly (and sarcastically) predicted the following: users fighting eachother from a list of so-called “logical fallacies”.

please fix your grammar. I seriously cannot understand what you are saying.

Nothing's wrong with it…
But anyway…I'll rephrase it.

My argument was not a distraction. It correctly predicted what is currently happening, in it's own sarcastic way. Users are now using that fallacy site to point out tons of so-called fallacies. For example:

User 1: bla bla bla bla bla…
User 2: That is invalid because of this fallacy: (link)
User 1: That statement saying that my argument is invalid is invalid because of this fallacy: (link)
User 2: NOT TRUE! Look at this fallacy: (link)
User 1: That's a strawman, another logical fallacy! (link)

etc…

Superdoggy wrote:

Unlocked wrote:

Superdoggy wrote:

Umm…my argument was not made to distract from the conversation. As you can see, I have correctly (and sarcastically) predicted the following: users fighting eachother from a list of so-called “logical fallacies”.

please fix your grammar. I seriously cannot understand what you are saying.

Nothing's wrong with it…
But anyway…I'll rephrase it.

My argument was not a distraction. It correctly predicted what is currently happening, in it's own sarcastic way. Users are now using that fallacy site to point out tons of so-called fallacies. For example:

User 1: bla bla bla bla bla…
User 2: That is invalid because of this fallacy: (link)
User 1: That statement saying that my argument is invalid is invalid because of this fallacy: (link)
User 2: NOT TRUE! Look at this fallacy: (link)
User 1: That's a strawman, another logical fallacy! (link)

etc…

not really.

Yep.

Shiverberry wrote:

Yep.

Yep to who?

@Unlocked

Shiverberry wrote:

@Unlocked

Okay. xP

So now we get back on topic and post our objective, well-reasoned arguments, right?


right?

900miles wrote:

So now we get back on topic and post our objective, well-reasoned arguments, right?


right?

Nah. I don't have time to make well-reasoned arguments just to have them pointlessly and baselessly shot down. I rarely have time for sarcastic statements either, I'm real sure of that too. xD

So this is my last post.

Ever.

Superdoggy wrote:

So this is my last post.

Ever.

I lied. xD

900miles wrote:

So now we get back on topic and post our objective, well-reasoned arguments, right?


right?

Yah the numbers being removed was unfair becuz potato.

Becuz potato, French fry.

See why itz so unfair?

Wah! I mad.

I've sort of already covered everything with all of my previous posts… at least everything that I can think of right now. :P

I think that the next best course of action would be to persuade for the Scratch Team to read every single post on each page in order, close the topic, and make a final decision. Because I'm really getting tired of putting together arguments and then getting ignored for several days, just to have one tiny post replied to.

Scratchifier wrote:

I've sort of already covered everything with all of my previous posts… at least everything that I can think of right now. :P

I think that the next best course of action would be to persuade for the Scratch Team to read every single post on each page in order, close the topic, and make a final decision. Because I'm really getting tired of putting together arguments and then getting ignored for several days, just to have one tiny post replied to.

Maybe make one giant post with all of the arguments to send to the Scratch Team?

900miles wrote:

Scratchifier wrote:

I've sort of already covered everything with all of my previous posts… at least everything that I can think of right now. :P

I think that the next best course of action would be to persuade for the Scratch Team to read every single post on each page in order, close the topic, and make a final decision. Because I'm really getting tired of putting together arguments and then getting ignored for several days, just to have one tiny post replied to.

Maybe make one giant post with all of the arguments to send to the Scratch Team?

Oh, that might take a while… but I might do that!

Scratchifier wrote:

900miles wrote:

So now we get back on topic and post our objective, well-reasoned arguments, right?


right?

Yah the numbers being removed was unfair becuz potato.

Becuz potato, French fry.

See why itz so unfair?

Wah! I mad.

I've sort of already covered everything with all of my previous posts… at least everything that I can think of right now. :P

I think that the next best course of action would be to persuade for the Scratch Team to read every single post on each page in order, close the topic, and make a final decision. Because I'm really getting tired of putting together arguments and then getting ignored for several days, just to have one tiny post replied to.

You're ignored because the scratch team doesn't think that your arguments are very good.

Unlocked wrote:

Scratchifier wrote:

900miles wrote:

So now we get back on topic and post our objective, well-reasoned arguments, right?


right?

Yah the numbers being removed was unfair becuz potato.

Becuz potato, French fry.

See why itz so unfair?

Wah! I mad.

I've sort of already covered everything with all of my previous posts… at least everything that I can think of right now. :P

I think that the next best course of action would be to persuade for the Scratch Team to read every single post on each page in order, close the topic, and make a final decision. Because I'm really getting tired of putting together arguments and then getting ignored for several days, just to have one tiny post replied to.

You're ignored because the scratch team doesn't think that your arguments are very good.

Stop assuming that you know what the other people are thinking.