security concern???

-Zyte-

fdreerf wrote:
-Zyte- wrote:
Now, if I did the math wrong, tell me.
You're supposed to exponentiate the number of colors and the number of pixels.
So, if you were to have 2 colors and 1728 pixels, there would actually be 15,129,776,317,850,095,820,092,511,389,349,266,990,292,718,729,815,631,986,418,537,353,879,463,563,521,162,185,150,219,603,700,165,130,994,236,082,131,324,756,445,942,491,538,167,955,612,355,559,370,819,630,786,874,949,073,054,392,871,127,532,858,565,042,604,704,229,027,792,897,149,278,536,911,570,984,376,289,178,239,414,281,093,587,086,254,280,625,511,423,417,734,560,103,547,720,775,941,236,898,584,297,864,754,056,409,689,723,511,538,383,397,266,829,071,642,966,529,789,271,374,337,767,970,717,302,376,007,449,935,423,628,987,375,161,285,038,699,647,338,790,955,261,847,896,303,406,764,539,379,637,294,632,424,461,577,413,789,356,619,528,237,622,525,126,579,905,139,518,845,267,220,627,456 combinations!

              :╠╬╬░░░'   ░'       ,▄▓▓█████▓▓▄▄╬▒▒▒                       ;░░░░░╠╠╠╠
              ]╬╬▒░' '  ''     ,▄▓██████████████▓▒▒                       ]░░░░▒╠▒▒▒
              ▐╬╬▒░       .' ╔▓███████████████████▒..                     ]░░░░╠╣╣▒▒
             .╠╬╬▒░    ' . .╔█████████████████╬╬╬╣█▒░░~                   ░░░░░╠╣╬╬▒
             .╠╬╬▒░  ,.. ''╔██████████╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╣╣╣╬╬█▒░░-                  ░░░░░╠╣╬╬╬
        .    ;╠╬╬░░░░░░░   ⌠██████╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╣▒░░-                 ░░░░░╠╣╬╬╬
    ▓▓▓▓▓▒▒▒∩]╬╬╬░░░░░░░,. ;╫███╬╣╣╬╬╬╬╠╠╠╠╠╠╠╠╬╣▓▓╣╬╬▒▒░       ,, ,,  ,, ░░░░░╠╣╬╬╬
    ╩╩╩╬╬╬╬╬░≤╬╬╬░░░░░░░░  .║██▓▓╣╣╣╬╬╠╠╠╠╠╠╠╣▓▓█▓╣▓▓╬╬▓▓░░,   ╙╙██╙╠█╨,█▌!░░░░╠╬╬╬╬
    ░░░░╠╬╬▒░╠╬╣▒░░░░░░░'   ;╟█▓▓╣╣╣▓▓▓▓▓▓╬╬╬╣▓▓╬╬▓╬╬╬╬╣▓▒░░    ╫╩ ▐█  █⌐'!░░░░╟╣╬╬╠
    ░░░░╬╬╬▒░╠╬╬▒░░░░░░░.    ⌠█▓╣╣▓╬╣▓▓▓▓▓╣╬╬╬╣▓╬╬╬╠╠╬╬╣▓▒░░    ▀Γ ╙▀  ▀─ ''!░░╟╬╬╬╠
    ░░░╠╬╬╬▒░╟╬╬▒░░░░''\░░░.:▓▓▓▓▓▓╬╬╣╣╬╬╬╣╬╬╠╠╬╬╣╣╬╬╬╬╣▓▒░░                '"░╟╬╬╬╠
    ░░░╠╬╣╬░░╟╬╬░░░░''' "'░ "╫╬╣╣▓▓╬╬╠╠╠╬╬╬╬╣╣╣╣▓▓▓▓▓╣╣╬▒░░░░            '   .░╟╬╬╬╬
    ░░░╠╬╣╬░░╣╬╬░░░░░░░   '  "╟╬╬╣╣╣╣╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╣╣╣╣╬╣╣▓▓╣╣╬▒░░░'                '▐╣╬╬╬╬
    ░░░╟╬╣╬░╠╬╬╬░░░░░░░.      "╚╣╬╣╣╣╣╣╣╣▓▓╣╣╬╩╙Γ░╠╣▓╣╣╬░░░░                ''╠▓╬╠╬╬
    ░░░╬╬╣▒░╫▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌░     .''░░╟╣╬╣╬╬╬╣▒▄▄#▒╣╬╬╣╣╣╣▓░░░░    ..        ....║▓╠╠╠╬
    ░░╠╬╬╬▒░║╣██░▄█▀░▄█▀░┐    ''  !^╟╣╣╣╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╣╣▓▓╣╣╣▓▓▒░░░░...'¡░    ..¡░░░░║╣╬╠╠╠
    ░░╠╬╬╬▒░╟██▒▄█▒░▒█▒░░     .-    ⌠╣▓▓▓▓╣╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╣╣▓██▓▓▒▒╚░░▒░░░ ...¡░░░░░░╟▓▓╬╣╬
    ░░╟╬╣╬░░╣╬█╬╬╬╩╠╠╩▒≡░   .░░░░░≥≥╓╠╣▓▓▓▓▓▓╣╬╬╬╣╣▓███▓███░  "╚╚▒▒░░░░░░░░░░░╫▓▓╬╣▒
    ░░╣╬╣╬░▒╣╣▓╬╠▒░░░░░░░░'   ..''░╙╙╚╠╣╬╣▓▓▓█████████▓▓▓╩       ^"░░░░░░░░░░▒╟╣█▓╬╬
    ░╠╬╬╣▒░╠▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▒▒▒▒▒▒▄▄▒▒╟╬╬╬╬╬╬╬██╬╬╬╬╬╣╬╙       .     '"░╚░░░╠╬╬╣█╣╬

I knew my math didn't feel right, but I'm kinda confused on what that number you gave means. Did I calculate the amount of chars wrong, or what did I calculate wrong?

ElsieBreeze

-Zyte- wrote:
Can I explain something to you?
There are 10 max cloud variables.
You can store 256 chars in each.
Which means there are 2560 chars in total.
I haven't seen anyone being able to create a black-white scanner yet.
There are a lot of colors being able to be scanned, without black-white scanning.
Scratch's stage is 4:3, and to get a full size image, it has to be 480x360 pixels.
That's 172800.
Even if we make it smaller, for example, 48x36, which is already unable to be seen, it's still 1728.
Let's say there are 60000 colors that are able to be scanned, but it's actually more. 5 chars per pixel. Now, let's multiply that by 1780. 5x1728=8640. Is that too much? Yep. So how are you going to scan it? Even if it's just 48x36, 1 Char per color, it's 1780, which technically is able to be stored, is not comprehensable.
Now, if I did the math wrong, tell me.

If we're calculating the maximum amount of data we can store in each cloud variable, well it's (10^128)-1 (128 digits). But that's meaningless on it's own. How much data is that in reality? Well, it's 425 bits of data roughly. Meaning that with 10 cloud variables, you can store roughly 4250 bits of data, or 4kilobytes of data.

So what does this amount to?

Well… for bitmap image data, at 1bpp (bits per pixel) you could store… 4000 pixels. So… a 40x100 two-colour image (say black and white).

But… that'd have literally no detail. It's *two* colours. Black and white. No grey. If you want 16 shades of grey you would need a 4bpp image, which would allow you… 40x25 pixels.

Want 256 colours (8bpp)… 20x25 pixels.

The more detail you add the quicker the resolution drops.

The fact that scanning won't be able to process the image in to something that makes sense very fast… it's kind of a non-issue.

Please don't shout at me if my math is wrong, it's 6:40am and I haven't slept yet.

Edit: Nevermind I was still under the impression that the limit was 128chars and not 256chars again.

Updated:

Roughly 853 bits per cloud var, so 8530 bits in total. 8530 pixels with 1bpp, or a 85x100 image.

In 4bpp (16 colour), 40x50 image roughly

In 8bpp (256 colour), 20x25 image roughly.

Last edited by ElsieBreeze (July 21, 2020 06:25:04)

fdreerf

-Zyte- wrote:
I knew my math didn't feel right, but I'm kinda confused on what that number you gave means. Did I calculate the amount of chars wrong, or what did I calculate wrong?

You calculated wrong. You multiplied the number of colors by the number of characters (2*8 = 16), but you're supposed to exponentiate them (2^8 = 256)

Last edited by fdreerf (July 21, 2020 06:01:40)

-Zyte-

ElsieBreeze wrote:
-snip-

So theoretically you could store an image in the cloud but it's as low quality as the :confuzzled: man above.

fdreerf

ElsieBreeze wrote:
Roughly 853 bits per cloud var, so 8530 bits in total. 8530 pixels with 2bpp, or a 85x100 image.

In 4bpp (16 colour), 40x50 image roughly

In 8bpp (256 colour), 20x25 image roughly.

ARTIST'S RENDITIONS:

ENLARGED TO SHOW DETAIL
For the last two, I just used paint.net's Posterize tool. For the first one, I turned the contrast all the way up. I had the most creative liberty with this one as I can mess with the brightness to get a semi-decent picture.

Last edited by fdreerf (July 21, 2020 06:20:13)

-Zyte-

fdreerf wrote:
-snip-

offtopic but… is that… pewdiepie?
Rip okay i did calculate wrong.

Last edited by -Zyte- (July 21, 2020 06:23:14)

fdreerf

-Zyte- wrote:
fdreerf wrote:
-snip-
offtopic but… is that… pewdiepie?

no

ElsieBreeze

fdreerf wrote:
ElsieBreeze wrote:
-snip

ARTIST'S RENDITIONS:

ENLARGED TO SHOW DETAIL
For the last two, I just used paint.net's Posterize tool. For the first one, I turned the contrast all the way up. I had the most creative liberty with this one as I can mess with the brightness to get a semi-decent picture.

It's also worth noting that (since the middle one could be said to be a “security concern” even though it's very hard to see much) that Paint.NET not only is much faster than Scratch but also does a lot of fancy math for scaling images.

A Scratch project trying to scan the camera would struggle to find that level of… detail…

The bottom one just looks horrifying though…

-Zyte-

fdreerf wrote:
-Zyte- wrote:
fdreerf wrote:
-snip-
offtopic but… is that… pewdiepie?
no

t-that's… *laugh* *chokes* lol i knew you would use a meme.

We should talk about how any color scanner can scan pictures with 256 color. Color value scanning?
So what can the thing capture? A low-res black-white picture of a room and a little child?
Or a bad but still comprehensible picture of a kid and a room?
Or a just a colorful but incomprehensible image of a kid and a room?

JackK211424

The only possible alternative i can think of is a cloud server system like mine. the project would store the data of an image, send it row by row to a server i have running. and boom, now i know what the user looks like.

hm

Of course most real time scanners are limited to resolution and mostly monochrome, so its still not that much of a consern concern

Last edited by JackK211424 (July 21, 2020 13:41:29)

CANSLP

okay all of the posts on this thread are ‘seems like it would be a very small image’ and yes. it would be a small image. again, the image would look like this with a whole lot of inefficiency in compression https://scratch-mit-edu.ezproxyberklee.flo.org/projects/412812463

that's still /an image/. like it's still big enough where you could consider it to be a picture of a person. we are past the point where it is productive to argue about whether an image of that size and color detail is ‘too intrusive’. personally i wouldn't want someone to unknowingly take a picture of me in that image format, but that's kind of irrelevant, because just purely in terms of data security ethics, i don't think there's much of a case for ‘it’s okay for people to take small low res pictures of users on a website of mostly children and save them online'.

we're past the point of figuring out how to optimize a hypothetical secret internet camera, what i'm saying is (and i believe this used to be the case anyways back in 2.0) that st should just disable the camera plugin in projects with cloud logs. that seems like an easy fix and is not contingent on windows and thresholds of whether we're letting people steal ‘too much’ webcam data.

Last edited by CANSLP (July 21, 2020 17:51:22)

HTML-Fan

Just an idea: You can see the date people put into cloud vars, so it would be possible to set a single variable a few times to send more data.

Last edited by HTML-Fan (July 21, 2020 17:54:07)

Basic88

CANSLP wrote:
what. i know this camera project isn't storing them online. i'm not snitching on some npr project, i'm saying we should probably change the way cloud logs and/or the camera works so that you can't take pictures of people and store them online (which you currently can)

Does that mean that every project with video sensing takes pictures of you?

HTML-Fan

Hehe, it doesn't effect me at all. I don't have a cam …. and wouldn't it ask for permission?

CANSLP

HTML-Fan wrote:
Just an idea: You can see the date people put into cloud vars, so it would be possible to set a single variable a few times to send more data.

oh i didn't even think about that, what's the data limit for the entire cloud log? i actually thought it was smaller

Basic88

-Zyte- wrote:

combinations!

              :╠╬╬░░░'   ░'       ,▄▓▓█████▓▓▄▄╬▒▒▒                       ;░░░░░╠╠╠╠
              ]╬╬▒░' '  ''     ,▄▓██████████████▓▒▒                       ]░░░░▒╠▒▒▒
              ▐╬╬▒░       .' ╔▓███████████████████▒..                     ]░░░░╠╣╣▒▒
             .╠╬╬▒░    ' . .╔█████████████████╬╬╬╣█▒░░~                   ░░░░░╠╣╬╬▒
             .╠╬╬▒░  ,.. ''╔██████████╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╣╣╣╬╬█▒░░-                  ░░░░░╠╣╬╬╬
        .    ;╠╬╬░░░░░░░   ⌠██████╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╣▒░░-                 ░░░░░╠╣╬╬╬
    ▓▓▓▓▓▒▒▒∩]╬╬╬░░░░░░░,. ;╫███╬╣╣╬╬╬╬╠╠╠╠╠╠╠╠╬╣▓▓╣╬╬▒▒░       ,, ,,  ,, ░░░░░╠╣╬╬╬
    ╩╩╩╬╬╬╬╬░≤╬╬╬░░░░░░░░  .║██▓▓╣╣╣╬╬╠╠╠╠╠╠╠╣▓▓█▓╣▓▓╬╬▓▓░░,   ╙╙██╙╠█╨,█▌!░░░░╠╬╬╬╬
    ░░░░╠╬╬▒░╠╬╣▒░░░░░░░'   ;╟█▓▓╣╣╣▓▓▓▓▓▓╬╬╬╣▓▓╬╬▓╬╬╬╬╣▓▒░░    ╫╩ ▐█  █⌐'!░░░░╟╣╬╬╠
    ░░░░╬╬╬▒░╠╬╬▒░░░░░░░.    ⌠█▓╣╣▓╬╣▓▓▓▓▓╣╬╬╬╣▓╬╬╬╠╠╬╬╣▓▒░░    ▀Γ ╙▀  ▀─ ''!░░╟╬╬╬╠
    ░░░╠╬╬╬▒░╟╬╬▒░░░░''\░░░.:▓▓▓▓▓▓╬╬╣╣╬╬╬╣╬╬╠╠╬╬╣╣╬╬╬╬╣▓▒░░                '"░╟╬╬╬╠
    ░░░╠╬╣╬░░╟╬╬░░░░''' "'░ "╫╬╣╣▓▓╬╬╠╠╠╬╬╬╬╣╣╣╣▓▓▓▓▓╣╣╬▒░░░░            '   .░╟╬╬╬╬
    ░░░╠╬╣╬░░╣╬╬░░░░░░░   '  "╟╬╬╣╣╣╣╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╣╣╣╣╬╣╣▓▓╣╣╬▒░░░'                '▐╣╬╬╬╬
    ░░░╟╬╣╬░╠╬╬╬░░░░░░░.      "╚╣╬╣╣╣╣╣╣╣▓▓╣╣╬╩╙Γ░╠╣▓╣╣╬░░░░                ''╠▓╬╠╬╬
    ░░░╬╬╣▒░╫▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌░     .''░░╟╣╬╣╬╬╬╣▒▄▄#▒╣╬╬╣╣╣╣▓░░░░    ..        ....║▓╠╠╠╬
    ░░╠╬╬╬▒░║╣██░▄█▀░▄█▀░┐    ''  !^╟╣╣╣╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╣╣▓▓╣╣╣▓▓▒░░░░...'¡░    ..¡░░░░║╣╬╠╠╠
    ░░╠╬╬╬▒░╟██▒▄█▒░▒█▒░░     .-    ⌠╣▓▓▓▓╣╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╣╣▓██▓▓▒▒╚░░▒░░░ ...¡░░░░░░╟▓▓╬╣╬
    ░░╟╬╣╬░░╣╬█╬╬╬╩╠╠╩▒≡░   .░░░░░≥≥╓╠╣▓▓▓▓▓▓╣╬╬╬╣╣▓███▓███░  "╚╚▒▒░░░░░░░░░░░╫▓▓╬╣▒
    ░░╣╬╣╬░▒╣╣▓╬╠▒░░░░░░░░'   ..''░╙╙╚╠╣╬╣▓▓▓█████████▓▓▓╩       ^"░░░░░░░░░░▒╟╣█▓╬╬
    ░╠╬╬╣▒░╠▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▒▒▒▒▒▒▄▄▒▒╟╬╬╬╬╬╬╬██╬╬╬╬╬╣╬╙       .     '"░╚░░░╠╬╬╣█╣╬

(I'll just assume this is from the camera)
This photo has bad resolution. Nobody can “stalk” someone with a picture of this detail.

Last edited by Basic88 (July 21, 2020 18:00:29)

CANSLP

HTML-Fan wrote:
Hehe, it doesn't effect me at all. I don't have a cam …. and wouldn't it ask for permission?

there's a notification the first time you encounter a camera project and then it just keeps permitting it. (for me at least, probably varies)

HTML-Fan

CANSLP wrote:
(for me at least, probably varies)

Never press “Always allow” for such things.

JackK211424

still, I feel like this:

is not really a security concern.
(yes thats a human being)

Last edited by JackK211424 (July 21, 2020 18:29:56)

HTML-Fan

JackK211424 wrote:
(yes thats a human being)

What? It looks like … I dunno how to describe it …

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